Thanks for taking the time to put together such a well-thought out and supported argument. I still disagree with some of it, but it gave me a lot to think about.
Re: history invalidating my point: Hmmm. What about Churchill? FDR? Joan of Arc? I wonder if any of them would pass the test either. I kind of feel like it's imperative not to pass that test if one wants to go up against insane odds; some situations, like the Shadow War, seem to require willful blindness to the probable consequences. I think it's likely that these people will turn into nutjobs, but I don't think it's necessarily inevitable.
Advisers: I will have to think more on this, because you make a strong point. One thing I realized as I kept watching was that Ivanova and Lennier are pretty willing to go along with most of what Sheridan and Delenn say, and Garibaldi, who is not...well, Sheridan stops listening to him in S4. Hmm. Anyway, I will give it some more thought.
But to get more detailed, my complaint about the test is largely about its question that ostensibly decides everything else: would you die for someone else even if you won't get famous? That's where I think we don't want someone to say yes, because like I said, these two are in NO POSITION to give themselves up without a DAMN good reason. Otherwise, the whole alliance falls apart, as we see at the beginning of S4 when the League races are running scared because Sheridan's supposedly dead. They can do much more good sending a foot soldier to die in their places. (Although I could get behind a reading of it as, "We want to make sure you've still got enough reason to understand that there are a couple of potential situations in which you should totally sacrifice yourself, rather than never ever doing so no matter what.")
I don't think Sheridan's an egomaniac, and I don't think Delenn is, either
Perhaps this is where differing interpretations of the episode stem from, because I see both of them as HUGE egomaniacs, especially Delenn. Her whole character seems to me to be based around her belief that this prophecy applies to her and only her, and she's going to do whatever it takes to fulfill it. Sheridan, maybe, has more of a "well, no one else is taking this horrible job, so I guess I will," thing going on, but I think there's also an element of, "I was the only person to win a victory against the Minbari, so of course I should be in charge here." (Which Delenn encourages the hell out of, IMO--and yes, you're right that I see her as Queen of Manipulators, even more so than Kosh/the Vorlons.)
Speaking of the Vorlons, I think that as agents of order above all else, they'd like nothing more than to release a fascist on the world--someone who would make the interstellar trains run on time, if you will. I sort of think they wanted to buck up J&D's courage/determination to do this thing, so they'd then be able put the galaxy under their orderly thumbs. I haven't developed this theory entirely yet, though.
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timeasmymeasure
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Date: 2010-09-09 01:48 am (UTC)Thanks for taking the time to put together such a well-thought out and supported argument. I still disagree with some of it, but it gave me a lot to think about.
Re: history invalidating my point: Hmmm. What about Churchill? FDR? Joan of Arc? I wonder if any of them would pass the test either. I kind of feel like it's imperative not to pass that test if one wants to go up against insane odds; some situations, like the Shadow War, seem to require willful blindness to the probable consequences. I think it's likely that these people will turn into nutjobs, but I don't think it's necessarily inevitable.
Advisers: I will have to think more on this, because you make a strong point. One thing I realized as I kept watching was that Ivanova and Lennier are pretty willing to go along with most of what Sheridan and Delenn say, and Garibaldi, who is not...well, Sheridan stops listening to him in S4. Hmm. Anyway, I will give it some more thought.
But to get more detailed, my complaint about the test is largely about its question that ostensibly decides everything else: would you die for someone else even if you won't get famous? That's where I think we don't want someone to say yes, because like I said, these two are in NO POSITION to give themselves up without a DAMN good reason. Otherwise, the whole alliance falls apart, as we see at the beginning of S4 when the League races are running scared because Sheridan's supposedly dead. They can do much more good sending a foot soldier to die in their places. (Although I could get behind a reading of it as, "We want to make sure you've still got enough reason to understand that there are a couple of potential situations in which you should totally sacrifice yourself, rather than never ever doing so no matter what.")
I don't think Sheridan's an egomaniac, and I don't think Delenn is, either
Perhaps this is where differing interpretations of the episode stem from, because I see both of them as HUGE egomaniacs, especially Delenn. Her whole character seems to me to be based around her belief that this prophecy applies to her and only her, and she's going to do whatever it takes to fulfill it. Sheridan, maybe, has more of a "well, no one else is taking this horrible job, so I guess I will," thing going on, but I think there's also an element of, "I was the only person to win a victory against the Minbari, so of course I should be in charge here." (Which Delenn encourages the hell out of, IMO--and yes, you're right that I see her as Queen of Manipulators, even more so than Kosh/the Vorlons.)
Speaking of the Vorlons, I think that as agents of order above all else, they'd like nothing more than to release a fascist on the world--someone who would make the interstellar trains run on time, if you will. I sort of think they wanted to buck up J&D's courage/determination to do this thing, so they'd then be able put the galaxy under their orderly thumbs. I haven't developed this theory entirely yet, though.